Not sure if I should lock this or not :/
Nov. 22nd, 2009 06:41 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
nakchi[mood | 
angry]
[music | Heartbeat -- 2PM]
Before I start foaming at the mouth, let me direct you to this. It's about the federal court case challenging proposition 8. (Does that need to be capitalised? It does, doesn't it?)
Some of the comments on this entry are really bothering me. I don't care if he meant that men should dote on women or if he meant that women are inferior to men -- they're both demeaning to women! The first is just a watered-down version of the latter. Granted, there are some people responding on the other side, but it feels like the vast majority either agree on some level with what Eeteuk said, or want to rationalise it so they can pretend it never happened (because having to come to terms with the fact that one of their favourite idols is sexist and looks down on them is too difficult! much easier to find a way not to deal with it), or, possibly worst of all -- they just don't care. Actually, I'm not sure if #2 or #3 is worse, because they're both bad. I want to stop reading because I know I'm not going to respond directly on that entry, even though I think I should, but I can't. It's like watching a train wreck.
What this reminds me of is this entry, specifically the following part (quoted because it's more eloquent than anything I could come up with) :
An especially chilling and extreme example of the power that these idols have to affect the way their fans view moral issues, particularly those of gender, came recently following the arrest of Alex, the drummer for ONE OK ROCK (many of who might know this as the band that Moriuchi joined - as "Taka" - after leaving NEWS) for molesting a young woman on the train, touching her thigh for five minutes.
What he did was a violation of her body. He touched her without her consent. No amount of youth or drunkenness excuses this. And yet, in many of the fans' responses, both at the group's community and at the rumor blog that broke the story, was to either insult the girl for speaking up about this or to say that what he did wasn't such a big deal. One response says "We have to support him!" Another says, "It's not like he jammed his fingers up her vagina," and another says, "Cut the stupid bitch." (On a personal level, I want to say that it's extremely scary to confront someone who has already shown that he's willing to cross the line and touch you inappropriately, he's already the physical aggressor in the situation and to me it makes sense that she should wait til she saw a cop to say something - especially if he was drunk and therefore more out of control.)
The point is, they would rather tell themselves that what he did is ok than tell themselves that he did something shitty and wrong. Which means they're convincing themselves that groping women isn't bad. How could it be, if their idol did it? It must not be a big deal. It's not like he violated her or anyth - OH WAIT.
In comparison, what Eeteuk said wasn't half as bad -- it didn't directly affect anyone. Except that it did, because he's spouting a sexist message that his fans will believe and which will affect his fans' ideals, and it's even harder for them to recognise that his statements and beliefs are demeaning to them because what he did is far more subtle than a physcial violation of a woman's body. Just because it isn't obvious doesn't mean it's okay, and that doesn't mean it doesn't need to be brought to light. And it also doesn't mean that we should all hate on Eeteuk, or Super Junior; I love Tatsuki a lot even though his ideal girlfriend makes me vomit inside. It's important to recognise sexism where it exists, and to point it out; it doesn't mean the person making sexist comments is necessarily a bad person. It's okay to like them. But it's not okay to rationalise what they say so it doesn't jar with what you feel is right, and it's not okay to modify what you think is right (or how you behave, whether you think it's right or not) because your idol tells you to. To quote![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
guingel once more :
I'm not saying that these problems don't happen with celebrities all over the world. I don't want to exonerate Western celebrities - or even imply that Japanese ones are so much worse that we need to "fix them." There are a couple reasons I'm focusing on the english-language fandom of Johnny's & Associates. First off, I feel like there is a community of fans that can be reached. It's a large community, but it's fairly concentrated on livejournal, people do read what people say and post and link to. So it just seemed like there might be a bit more of a reason to do this here than to go to the fansites of every Western celebrity that says something inappropriate about women.
The other main reason is that it's not being done. I've been using the blog Glossed Over as an example of similar critiques of the Western media; she pulls apart all the sexist, belittling, and stupid crap that women's magazines pull. If someone is doing something like this in Japan, if there are places where sexism is pointed out and critiqued, it's not getting translated. And I think it's important that there are voices saying these things.
It is important. It is extremely important, and we need to speak up until the message gets through.
(Old) links, for those of you interested :
-The Mismeasure of Women - I don't necessarily agree with everything she says, but the bit about how the conversation re: women needs to change? Yes.
-Feminism and the media - This time not about JE; contains several good links to other places
-Re: men and rape - Contains a link to another excellent post at the top
angry][music | Heartbeat -- 2PM]
Before I start foaming at the mouth, let me direct you to this. It's about the federal court case challenging proposition 8. (Does that need to be capitalised? It does, doesn't it?)
Some of the comments on this entry are really bothering me. I don't care if he meant that men should dote on women or if he meant that women are inferior to men -- they're both demeaning to women! The first is just a watered-down version of the latter. Granted, there are some people responding on the other side, but it feels like the vast majority either agree on some level with what Eeteuk said, or want to rationalise it so they can pretend it never happened (because having to come to terms with the fact that one of their favourite idols is sexist and looks down on them is too difficult! much easier to find a way not to deal with it), or, possibly worst of all -- they just don't care. Actually, I'm not sure if #2 or #3 is worse, because they're both bad. I want to stop reading because I know I'm not going to respond directly on that entry, even though I think I should, but I can't. It's like watching a train wreck.
What this reminds me of is this entry, specifically the following part (quoted because it's more eloquent than anything I could come up with) :
An especially chilling and extreme example of the power that these idols have to affect the way their fans view moral issues, particularly those of gender, came recently following the arrest of Alex, the drummer for ONE OK ROCK (many of who might know this as the band that Moriuchi joined - as "Taka" - after leaving NEWS) for molesting a young woman on the train, touching her thigh for five minutes.
What he did was a violation of her body. He touched her without her consent. No amount of youth or drunkenness excuses this. And yet, in many of the fans' responses, both at the group's community and at the rumor blog that broke the story, was to either insult the girl for speaking up about this or to say that what he did wasn't such a big deal. One response says "We have to support him!" Another says, "It's not like he jammed his fingers up her vagina," and another says, "Cut the stupid bitch." (On a personal level, I want to say that it's extremely scary to confront someone who has already shown that he's willing to cross the line and touch you inappropriately, he's already the physical aggressor in the situation and to me it makes sense that she should wait til she saw a cop to say something - especially if he was drunk and therefore more out of control.)
The point is, they would rather tell themselves that what he did is ok than tell themselves that he did something shitty and wrong. Which means they're convincing themselves that groping women isn't bad. How could it be, if their idol did it? It must not be a big deal. It's not like he violated her or anyth - OH WAIT.
In comparison, what Eeteuk said wasn't half as bad -- it didn't directly affect anyone. Except that it did, because he's spouting a sexist message that his fans will believe and which will affect his fans' ideals, and it's even harder for them to recognise that his statements and beliefs are demeaning to them because what he did is far more subtle than a physcial violation of a woman's body. Just because it isn't obvious doesn't mean it's okay, and that doesn't mean it doesn't need to be brought to light. And it also doesn't mean that we should all hate on Eeteuk, or Super Junior; I love Tatsuki a lot even though his ideal girlfriend makes me vomit inside. It's important to recognise sexism where it exists, and to point it out; it doesn't mean the person making sexist comments is necessarily a bad person. It's okay to like them. But it's not okay to rationalise what they say so it doesn't jar with what you feel is right, and it's not okay to modify what you think is right (or how you behave, whether you think it's right or not) because your idol tells you to. To quote
guingel once more :I'm not saying that these problems don't happen with celebrities all over the world. I don't want to exonerate Western celebrities - or even imply that Japanese ones are so much worse that we need to "fix them." There are a couple reasons I'm focusing on the english-language fandom of Johnny's & Associates. First off, I feel like there is a community of fans that can be reached. It's a large community, but it's fairly concentrated on livejournal, people do read what people say and post and link to. So it just seemed like there might be a bit more of a reason to do this here than to go to the fansites of every Western celebrity that says something inappropriate about women.
The other main reason is that it's not being done. I've been using the blog Glossed Over as an example of similar critiques of the Western media; she pulls apart all the sexist, belittling, and stupid crap that women's magazines pull. If someone is doing something like this in Japan, if there are places where sexism is pointed out and critiqued, it's not getting translated. And I think it's important that there are voices saying these things.
It is important. It is extremely important, and we need to speak up until the message gets through.
(Old) links, for those of you interested :
-The Mismeasure of Women - I don't necessarily agree with everything she says, but the bit about how the conversation re: women needs to change? Yes.
-Feminism and the media - This time not about JE; contains several good links to other places
-Re: men and rape - Contains a link to another excellent post at the top
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2009-11-22 11:46 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-11-23 12:00 am (UTC)I still haven't been able to watch the whole thing, but apparently he says that women should be grateful to men for protecting them? That's definitely closer to "women are weak and helpless flowers", ugh.
I was kind of expecting you'd to comment on this! Actually, I was hoping you'd post about it first, because I enjoy reading your comments on feminism. &hearts
no subject
Date: 2009-11-23 12:04 am (UTC)Thank you! ♥ A lot of the comments with regard to feminist complaints in that omona post ("don't take it so seriously, crazy feminists!") were very disheartening, so it made me feel better to see I have sensible people on my flist.
no subject
Date: 2009-11-23 03:34 am (UTC)I do agree with you though...some of the comments did bother me...it's like, where is your backbone???!!